Pricing our SERVICES is one of the hardest decisions entrepreneurs have to make!It's more difficult than pricing products because it's TOTALLY subjective to calculate the worth of your advice, expertise, and value of your TIME.

As if all that wasn't enough, all kinds of GARBAGEY thoughts populate in our minds:

do my clients have the money?

Who am I to charge THAT amount?

How do I figure out the math of it?

How do I tell my potential clients my fees without feeling I'm gonna faint?

In our ALWAYS FUN & spontaneous conversation, marketing expert Claudia Schalkx & I talk about the art & science of price & value,

why women have such a hard time setting a price,

and what factors play a role in setting a price from a marketing and content point of view!

 

Watch The Full Interview! 

 

Full Transcript 

Jen Liddy

So is there a more Cringey conversation to have Claudia then pricing and value and worth and we are going to have it today?

Claudia Schalkx

Oh, I love the. I love the topic because it's so really close to our business and to women. I love that you asked to talk about it.

 Jen Liddy

Oh, I don't think I asked to talk about it. As you suggested. We talk about it because, you know, you tell today she's going to put me in the hot seat. So we're going to see where this goes. Everybody depends. OK, so I agree that pricing is one of the yucky things that especially women, especially service providers. And you did a good job of talking about that in our introduction about because it's your time and your expertize and your training and all of the things.

So there's lots of ways to feel horrible about this and to avoid it. Before we drive too deep into this, I have this theory that people don't put content out there and they don't do marketing because they know that if they do, they're eventually going, I can't do the three. They eventually are going to have to talk about it. Well, that's a good way. It's a better way to do three. They're eventually going to have to talk about pricing.

And so they kind of sabotage themselves because they don't really want to talk about pricing. That's my theory.

Claudia Schalkx

I don't agree with you on that. It's not the pricing, the issue. It's feeling sales. But going to the to the core of the question, there are two things there. One is price, which is factual and it's tangible and it's measurable. You know, and you and you then have value. So the thing is value is perception. That is what makes it such a tricky thing to define. Then the funny thing is that we set the price of our products and services, but our clients define the value that is so right.

Exactly right.

So that is where the the distancing from the topic begins to make things worse. When we said we as business owners set the price and tried to to see the value or fixed the value of it, we are comparing ourselves against our competitors. So, you know, how how much is charging or what is her program? How is assuming you and I were competitors, which we are. Thank God we are not. Yeah, but, you know, if I would compare myself to another marketing consultant, then I might check her programs and her prices, et cetera, et cetera.

But the thing is, and here's the interesting thing. Customers now compare us to our competitors because they might not know who our competitors are. They compare us to what they are using now to solve the problem.

Jen Liddy

Oh, interesting. Take that apart with that, Nick, that I am going to put you in the hot seat, ok? OK, OK. So you have this ability of turning text into. Wonderful. Text, sorry, the redundancy. But you are not doing this as a service yet, so let's suppose you would like to do this as a service most with whom would you compare this service? Who else would be delivering a similar service?

So are you talking about the thing that we did yesterday where we did your home page? OK, so just to give you guys some context, yesterday, Claudia and I worked on she kind of said some stuff to me that she felt about her her business and what would go in the home page. And then we kind of massaged it to be a home page. And she basically took her words and made them into what would work on a home page so that it would land with her audience.

That's what you're talking about, right? That service.

Claudia Schalkx

OK, but that is not a structured service. You have not yet the exercise we were doing yesterday. But let's suppose you want to make that a service. OK, so how would you compare it to who else can give that service?

Jen Liddy

Well, I know there were copywriters out there who do that kind of work, but most probably your people is comparing not to you to a copywriter, but you to writing it themselves. Yeah. And that is the difference. So if you the first thing you need to know is to really see your service from the eyes of your client and not see your service from your eyes again.

That's which we always go back to. So this is a really interesting point because I hadn't even thought about so say they might have because you said what are they already trying to do to solve their problem? Yeah, they might be looking at other people's websites and taking up a lot of time. They might be trying to read a book about writing a website.

Claudia Schalkx

They might take a course. You have to read your website or they might be like me where I know what I want. But writing is not my thing. And I will spend hours watching at the white screen. Mm hmm. OK. And I also want a part in my text, so I want creation in my face. So you might start using procreation instead of copyright. And besides yourself, don't think you're the copyright thing, but you massage the text.

So you are in between me doing it myself and a copyright.

Jen Liddy

That's right. That's right.

Claudia Schalkx

But if you use the words copyright, the associations you will have in the mind of people are not the ones of the job you want to do because you want to work with the client. That's how you have calculation there. How do you feel about this? Right. This, you know, conveying what you want, so you need to see it from what the client is using now to solve the problem. So let's put it so that in the product instead of a service and this will be make it easier, let's suppose you have a to do list and the team is growing and it's becoming a mess.

So the options you will be comparing your your problem with is Excel, for instance, or Trello, you know. So then but you're not comparing to a CRM. You're not you are looking to what is easier than an excel. Then Asthana and Trello and Click Upwell will pop up, but, you know, the thing is, you need to understand what is using in your client now to solve the problem and compare your service against that and then use that in your wording.

But because we tend to see our business from our from our perspective, then we start using the wrong wording. And that is where the whole concept of value gets screwed because it's the client who decides the value of your product. It's not you. So if you really want your your product or service in the right way that it addresses or falls in that intersection of the problem they want to solve and the objection they have for getting into action, I want to lose weight, but I don't want to stop eating carbohydrates, for instance.

And you have a solution for that. Your solution becomes more valuable in their eyes and then you can put the price that reflects that value.

Jen Liddy

I love this. OK, what else? So I'm thinking about, for example, let's just talk about the membership because we're both deep into the membership. And I've been really thinking about the problem that my people have, which is they can attract the right clients and content creation takes up too much of their time and it's not worth their effort anyway what they're currently doing. So if I'm not so, I've been comparing myself to other content creator memberships. Right.

But most people what they're doing when they find me is they've downloaded a thousand freebies and they've downloaded calendars and scripts and templates that aren't working for them because that's what they currently have.

Claudia Schalkx

Yes. Fighting against inertia.

Jen Liddy

Yes, yes. Yes.

Claudia Schalkx

You're not fighting. And then you need to find out what is causing the inertia. And you already figured it out that it was planning. Yes. So you are the moment you did that, the change, you started to see more interaction in the group and you started to see the people said, I have better results because the biggest, which is the step before creating content, is planning.

Jen Liddy

Yes, yes. Yes. Right.

Claudia Schalkx

So but that came before because you started to hear your people and you started to see where is the problem. So you really started to see the problem from the eyes of your people. OK, these are the guidelines for creating content. But OK, I am doing this and I'm still not getting the results. So the problem is lying somewhere else. That is the thing we have to do. And that's why an accurate my persona is so vital to define the price and the value because the price is a baseline.

I want to make so much money working so many hours and this is my rate per hour. So you certainly need a figure. You need a number, you know, but with clients, when they say, I don't have money or your product is too expensive, the underlying reason is not the lack of money, it's that you haven't been able to to stay the value of your product or service. So you haven't convinced them. Because they'll figure if people get into loans to whites and their teeth, yes, yes, I was there and you know that money is not a problem.

You just need to want that so badly or need to have the are the pain is not urgent enough that you get them into motion, into making a decision.

Jen Liddy

I have a friend yesterday I was chatting with her and we were talking about plastic surgery. And this is a person who doesn't spend money on anything ever. And she told me that she's laying down twenty five hundred dollars for a plastic surgery procedure. And I was really blown away because of all the other things in her life that I know that she needed and never put money down on. This is the one that she's going to put money down on or that that parent whose kid needs the orthodontia and they have they've never they haven't bought a new car in years or whatever, but they found the money to get their kid the orthodontia.

Right. Like we find the money when it's really, really important to us. Yes.

Claudia Schalkx

And when the pain is enough that it gets you into action. So, for instance, back to your talk to the example of your service. If I tried to write my page so many times and I know I am getting stuck, a copywriter is not what I want because I still want my style in my pitch. So I am looking for something that is not precisely a copywriter. So I'm looking for something that dusko creation or somebody who improves the prosthetics or somebody who's willing to listen to what I have to say and make it.

But if you position yourself as a copywriter, then you are out of my radio of interest and the what you are the expectation you are creating is different to the service that you want to render. So that's where the distancing starts to happen.

Jen Liddy

Yeah, this is really interesting because the other day I had a call with somebody who asked me, oh, I really need some work done on my messaging and I really like what you're saying. I told her how I work, that I work collaboratively with people. And then she was kind of like, I don't I don't really have a lot of time. So I said I might not be the right person for you. You might need a copywriter who's going to ask you a whole bunch of questions and then take it and do it.

But I am done with you person. And she decided over the course of the conversation that that was valuable to her because she wanted her voice put in there. But my job, I had to be honest about the value that I was bringing versus what a copywriter could do for her. And then she had to assess whether she wanted to pay for it for either one of those services. So I think that knowing people like knowing our audience, but then also knowing what we will do and what we won't do, not kind of compromising on our services or our pricing because we think, oh, they don't have the money.

If they don't have the money, that's just well, that is the thing, you know, with when you set a price or you said what in your eyes, it's an outrageous price, we start to assume she doesn't have the money. My product can be priced at this level, et cetera, et cetera. So that means you haven't done the groundwork. And the groundwork is understanding what is the role of your service in simplifying the life of your customer?

And what is the value, your customer gifts to you, to your solution? And then again, compared to what the customer is using presently to solve the problem and not compare to your competitors? You know, if I am a big business like Adobe or like Microsoft, then it's, you know, people know the alternatives to Adobe or to Microsoft or you will run search alternatives. But if you do an alternative to the you won't find a result.

At least not online. But you need to know people is comparing to what they know and to what they have in house now. So that's that's the biggest thing in value that I see flies over the head of entrepreneurs is that we assume, OK, my retreats are wonderful or my sessions, my done with the sessions are wonderful. But if people don't want done with you, then you are missing the mark.

So what do you do once somebody with your clients, once they've determined I understand what my what my buyer's persona really wants and needs. I understand the framework that I bring and how I solve this problem. But then there's this this confidence problem, because even when you are deeply rooted in understanding how much value you bring, it's still hard to say this is the number four for many people. And then you start telling yourself the story like who are they going to think I am?

And this is outrageous. This is an outrageous pricing. And what do you how do you counsel your clients with that, that you keep your mouth shut while you are having those thoughts of you that that feels very much of you just do it. I mean, to say once you drop the bump of the price to keep it in that shut up and say the price doesn't say the price and stay silent. Yeah. And give the other person the time to digest what you just said.

Because, you know, I once had a client who said to me, I thought your rates were much higher and I was on the brink because it was too long in my in my perception was difficult. And I wasn't afraid to say, well, you know, I can give you a discount. And she said, oh, my God, I thought your rates were much higher. And I was like, I need to raise this.

I've had that moment to live in my head. I was like, oh, she's going to say, it's expensive. You know? She said, you know, and thank God I kept my mouth shut so, you know, drop the price and let the other person decide if that's too much or too less or whatever, and then don't compromise on the price bonuses or take things out, you know, except when you are having like a sales conversation, a discovery call, a consultation, whatever people want to call it.

Your job is to really understand what the person wants. What they haven't done yet, where the kind of chasm is and to help them understand that this is a problem that's actually causing them pain, keeping them from money, whatever it is that you have to cede all of that before you drop the price. And one of the things I think people don't do in their sales calls is I think I think they don't talk more about the value and what they're going to what the person's going to get as a result.

I think people spend too much time talking about we're going to have 12 sessions together and I'm going to do this for you and you're going to get it's all about the house.

Claudia Schalkx

And they they have to focus on the process. And the process is important, but it's not important in this country. So the process you can be for later. But the thing is, you know, a discovery code isn't called discovery by accident. It's a two way discovery. You know, the person can discover who you are, but you also have to discover that person is the right is good for you. So if you know the trying to do to deliver the best version of your service, you need to know.

In my case, I need to know if people have a clear understanding of who they are. The appliances. I need to know what how do they define the problem they solve. I need to know if they have a system in place to track down. You know, the less they have, the more work for me. But if I don't stop to ask and understand what they have, what are they struggling with, what have they done so far, you know, how can I tell that the advice that I'm giving them is the right thing for them?

How can I be confident and true to myself telling them that my program will solve the problem? If I was busy solving the problem in my program instead of busy understanding what is this person looking for? And if this person is a good fit for me, you know, because it might look interesting, it might be a person who willing to pay your fees, but it might be a pain in the ass. Yes. And you discover that in the discovery process and you have like an 80 percent conversion on your discovery calls.

Yes. So you take your time with them. You really get to know the person. I what I think is is really beneficial for you is you are not gearing up to a sale. You are so rooted in who you can help and who you don't want to help or you can't help. You're so rooted in this is the value that I bring, like, you know that so deeply that you're not tied up with a will. This person judged me.

You already know the incredible value that you can bring somebody. And there's a very grounded confidence about you.

And the other thing is also as well is. If the product doesn't solve the problem this person has, you won't have an ambassador, you might have a fan. Yeah, and when people is not satisfied, they are more willing to talk bad about your business than when they are happy. So if you don't take the time to make sure that the other person is the right fit for your business and vice versa, the relationship will be a thing. And if you have a three month program, for instance, I have a three month program, what we can meet these.

I mean, and it's a common it's a commitment, and if we if this person is not a good fit for me and vice versa, it's going to be uphill battle. Besides that, marketing can already be an uphill battle, but there will be also the personal dislike or, you know, the frustration. So, you know, you really have it's it's like going to a job interview, you know, but a two way job. Do you want to know if your employers are right for you and if the position is the right for you?

Right. And we really need to take the time to understand. And in addition, it might be that this person is not a good fit or might be that this person says, OK, this is interesting, but I am not ready. But you will have information enough to fine tune your service, to write a blog to create content or to find or create new services because of the conversations. That's so true. You really have to go genuinely interested in the other person and not focus.

I need to make it so. I need to.

Jen Liddy

That's right. That's right. So all of this stuff about understanding your value, I don't really like to I don't really like to talk about our worth because it doesn't mean that doesn't mean anything.

Claudia Schalkx

So that's that's even more perceptional than value.

Jen Liddy

Yes. Yes. So the value that you bring is the transformation that you can have, the transformation or the solving of the problem or the getting rid of the pain. And if that I mean, I've been on discovery because I don't actually do them anymore where the person just just fresh out of life coach school and she hadn't been in business at all. She was kind of trying to do it. But she wasn't in any pain. She had no urgency.

It was a complete waste of time to do to do that was going to be cool. But from doing it, I learned, oh, I really want to work with people who have kind of been bounced around the industry a little while, not really newbies. So I did get something out of it.

Claudia Schalkx

I need to be with people who understand the value of marketing for their business and are willing to put the effort because marketing is a long term game and you have to stay there, you know, and that they have already tried something. Some did work out, some didn't. But it helps them to be more decisive and to be clear on what they want to see as their results and so much more fun to work with, with a person who has been bounced by the industry, like you say, because their experiences are richer and the results you can give are richer as well.

You know, this is a more mature entrepreneur and they understand what's what's in the in the game, but, you know, start there. So I've had a couple of clients that were starting out, but they had very few ideas where they wanted to go and they just needed to figure out how.

Jen Liddy

So when we're so just to leave people with a couple of things, when they're thinking about pricing, we have to stop thinking that we're we're we're selling our time or that we're selling our hours because that is so detrimental when we're pricing ourselves. We have to stop talking about all of the features that we offer. It's this and this. And you get this and you get this and you get people are overwhelmed by that. They just want to know, can you get me across the bridge?

Can you get me there? And you have to be confident in who you help and how you help people so that you don't waffle and offer discounts or say, oh, you really want me to do this for you, I'll do it for you. But you don't really want to do that. And it just builds resentment on both sides. So you've brought up so many good points today for and again, it's always about going back to these foundations.

There's nothing like fancy here that we ever talk about. It's always going back to the foundations.

Claudia Schalkx

Definitely. Yes, it is. But at one point I want to make about the hours is the more experience you have, the less hours you may need to solve something that is so true. So how are you going to build by the hour, you know, if you can solve it in five minutes. But that's that's the real result. You know, if your experience, your your self reflection, your learning so you can quicker help a person.

And that in itself is of tremendous value because instead of being three months dragging this person through the mud, you can solve this person in a month, you know. True. And everybody's happier. But what if you promise you will have three months of sessions, etc., etc. You have to put the ice at the end of the bowl at the goal. And then if you have research results faster, everybody happier, you have to work quote unquote, less, less time at least.

And the other person is back in the game faster. What how how is that not valuable?

Jen Liddy

That's such a good point. I forgot about that piece too. As usual. Thank you. You're welcome. If you are watching this on the replay, we would love to know what your thoughts are on pricing versus value and how you approach it. If you are interested in learning more about how Klaudia can help you with your marketing. Actually, what we like really narrow down the. She really helps you unravel your marketing as a whole, she helps you see the whole thing.

I'm much more laser focused. I'm content specifically, but she helps you see the whole pathway. And so you can find Claudia at her website, which will be updated very soon after me.

Claudia Schalkx

And then you go.

Jen Liddy

That's right. That's right. A bridge to more dotcom. And she's got a great honestly her intake. You will learn a whole lot about what the little holes are in your business and how you can fill them in. So I highly suggest getting on the call with Claudia. Thank you, love. All right. And she and I are actually going to go work on my business next. So we are going to get into some heavy stuff.

Bye, everybody.