Full Transcript 

Jen Liddy

I remember this moment when a client said to me, "Oh, it doesn't have to be a 24/7 commercial about me?" when she was doing her marketing and presenting her content to her audience. When people have this a-ha moment, it's great, but how do we get there? 

Today we are talking about what to do when marketing feels pushy and gross and like, you're 24/7 commercial for yourself and your products and your services. Why does this happen? And what are we supposed to do about it?

Claudia Schalkx

Hi, Jen. How are you doing today?

Jen Liddy

I always want to say good morning, but it's afternoon over in the Netherlands.

Claudia Schalkx

Almost end of the day.

Jen Liddy

You're like crawling across the finish line! So let's talk about this issue with your marketing clients; what are the words that they use? My people usually say pushy and gross.

Claudia Schalkx

They say it feels filthy. How can I prevent my marketing from feeling filthy? And by sales, they mean feeling pushy or imposing yourself or not pleasant to do.

Jen Liddy

In America, we have this old paradigm of the used car salesman. Do you have the same one? Do you have the same paradigm?

Claudia Schalkx

Well, I'm not sure, but the analogy works because they are very pushy. And, you know, people that work with sales can be very pushy.

Jen Liddy

Tell me when your people say they don't want to feel salesy, where's the entry point for you? What conversation do you start having with them?

Claudia Schalkx

Well, we tend to feel salesy because there are two reasons you either are not listening to your client and which is the car sales situation. They are not thinking with you, they are not helping, not collaborating, and they are not supporting you. So they are trying to sell you something you are not yet interested in or ready to get. That is when it feels pushy to the other person because you are actually being pushy.

When you're not listening to your client, and you are selling, whether because you don't listen or are desperate to make some money this month and you need to sign up a client, you can come across as pushy.

The other thing I see is when you don't meet your clients where they are, and we try to sell them something they are not ready to buy. An analogy would be, let's go back to 1970, and I am trying to sell you a mobile phone. I tell you, "People will be able to reach you 24/7!" and your reaction will be, "Why would I want to be available 24/7?"

If you are selling them something for which they are not prepared, you're assuming you don't know their level of awareness regarding the solution; then you are pushy because what happens is they are not getting you. And in trying to explain yourself, you become repetitive and insistent. That is what makes it very salesy and pushy, so I would listen to your client's questions. 

That's the other thing about discovery calls; a lot of people call them or think of them at sales calls. A discovery call is a discovery call - we are going to figure out if we are a good match and if my solution is the right thing for you. In a discovery call, you establish and diagnose what the problem is, and if you can help them, you start asking questions and understand the problem at hand. Then the sales part is almost a natural progression of that conversation. If you come into a call for the conviction that you are going to sell or that you need to sell, or that you need to sign up a client, you won't be listening to what the client has to say.

Jen Liddy

This is true whether you're on a sales call, discovery call, or whether you're writing content for your marketing, or you're pitching yourself at a networking event like all of these points along the way. If you are coming at it with this energy of like, I have to sell something, and I have to convert that's when people receive it is pushy and repetitive and aggressive.

Claudia Schalkx

Yeah.

Because if you are convinced that your product is good, which is the ideal situation, you don't need to prove your product is good, right? You ask questions, you diagnose, and then you can say, "Okay, this is what's going on, and these are the possible solutions."

Whether it's your program or solution or somebody else you know. When I talk to my clients about content, the wonderful way to figure it out is by shaking your sleeve, and the perfect words come out. 

Also, I know it's a content problem, and I could solve it, but I think you are even better than I am at solving it. So I say, "Okay, there are two ways to solve it, we either do it the Claudia way, and you will have ABCD, or we do it the Jen way, and you will have A to F you may choose." 

I always give them options - giving options is a nice way to let people compare what is best for them and make an informed decision.

Jen Liddy

This is an interesting topic if you just pull out the phrase "giving them options." 

I want to talk specifically about one marketing tactic that people really despise, which is sliding into somebody's messenger or DMs or sending them a text or sending them an email and trying to sell immediately. 

That tactic feels terrible to people, and it's one that I hear cited over and over again, and I can't imagine that in 2021 that anyone is still doing this, but they are! 

My DMs on Instagram is filled with pushers, and I actually just delete and block them. I don't even respond to them, so I think when people come to this conversation, that's part of it, too. 

So this conversation of, like, how can I not be pushy? I think that's another thing that's behind it, and when you do that to somebody or when you receive that from somebody, you feel like you don't have any option. 

When somebody does that to you, you feel like you don't have many options. You're just like, I either have to be rude, or I want to be rude - that's my first thing, I want to be rude, or I have to do something like blocking you, which also feels gross to me.

I don't want to block people, but it definitely doesn't open up a conversation.

Claudia Schalkx

Yes, definitely. 

This goes back to what we've discussed so many times: you have to find marketing that works with your strengths. I doubt that that kind of marketing will work with anybody's strength.

Jen Liddy

I wonder whose strength does that work for? I know that there are people who don't need an invitation to come in - they can just do the sales call or the pitch, and that's not my style at all. But I do wonder who those people are? Do any of those people wind up being your clients? Maybe they don't need marketing help.

Claudia Schalkx

No, I don't accept them.

This is kind of veering away from what we're talking about, but that's when you do your business branding, right? One of the things I do with my clients is spending quality time discussing their values. 

What are the values? And how do they reflect their values in their business? So, for instance, one of your values is transparency. So what you like is people who are transparent as well and operate from a transparent position. When you are not clear about your values, that's when you start falling into those gray areas where you have this objective of needing to sign up a client, and then you forget the role of your values, and you deviate from what your business is supposed to do. 

One of the things you have to do is check with your values. Would I like somebody to approach me in that way? No. So why would you do it?

Jen Liddy

A question for people who feel like maybe emailing their list every week? If you feel like you're emailing your list, and that feels off to you - does that mean you don't like to receive emails every week from somebody, or what is that? What's behind that?

Claudia Schalkx

That's a question of value. 

What value are you giving in your email? And if it's really a word to get to pop into somebody's email weekly, and you know, then again, sometimes I don't look at the email, and sometimes I do. And then I get these emails saying I saw that you read my email, but you didn't take action. It feels like Big Brother watching.

And I think that's taking a bit too far.

Jen Liddy

I love that because I was just going to write in the comments, what tactics feel horrible to you or invasive to you that are industry standards and that work? That is probably a tactic that works for some people, but I would never do that.

Claudia Schalkx

I think that's an invasion of your privacy and that it's fairly creepy. You know, there is an alternative to that. I've seen people who sent you an email on Monday, and then around Thursday, they sent you the same email with a different title. So, you know, life is busy, it might be that it flew over your head, and you're giving me another opportunity.

But for instance, let's suppose I meet with someone in the given situation, and they say, "Let's catch up later in the month." That person is giving you permission to reach out for them, but then the question is, how do I reach out for them? 

Do I say we spoke at such and such meeting, and they said I could reach out in a month, so what you can do in that case is we discussed the challenges of your business. Are you still looking for a solution? Are you still interested? 

Then the person can say yes or no, and I insist three times, so I send one email then I follow with a message on LinkedIn because it can be that the email landed in spam but on LinkedIn, it will reach them for sure. And then maybe a third time, and if they don't react, I leave it there.

Jen Liddy

There's one thing I want to talk about in terms of the mindset of thinking that marketing is pushy. We've been kind of trained with all of these tactics that you and I have unpacked today, and marketing doesn't have to be like that. 

As you and I have talked about many times, there's no one right way. As you mentioned before, you have to take all of the different tactics and see what works for you with your values. I really wish that people before they say, I don't want to tout myself, or I was brought up not to pat myself on the back, I was brought up not to broadcast myself. 

I would like to tell this quick story about the local doctor here who's a hormone doctor who never advertises and works with women who need hormone replacement. She does it in a bioidentical way and I never heard about her for ten years. I had no energy, I didn't sleep and if I had seen any of her marketing, I would have gotten relief much earlier than I did. 

It took me until it was almost 50 to get this relief - and I just want to remind people that the thing that you are bringing to the marketplace is what your audience desperately needs. You know, if you can meet them along the way, not pushing, not always showing them the house. Just giving them the touchpoints to be invited in. I just wish people could think about it as you're inviting people in rather than your being pushy.

Claudia Schalkx

When you have a thorough client profile, you know your clients inside and out, and you know their pains, goals, dreams, and what is preventing them from taking action. 

So when you start with the problem they want to tackle, then you're catching their attention. If that is something in their interest, they will continue reading or listening or whatever where you are delivering the content. You have to let people know that you exist, in whatever way feels good to you.

Jen Liddy

Working with you this summer on my ideal client profile - I've been writing about this to my email list that it gave me such freedom because I now know that I only work with people who want to create their own content. They're not ready to ship it out or farm it out or hire somebody to write it for them. 

That's very freeing because that means if you want to figure this content out, come on, I'll teach you everything you need to know, right? That means I can let go of working with people who want me to write their sales pages for them. I'm a "teach you how" person, and I did not have that dialed in until my journey with you this summer. And so I'm curious about your people, what is your ideal person? What did you realize when you did this work?

Claudia Schalkx

I realized that I work best with people who have been in business between two to three years because they need to understand what is the value of marketing in their business, and they need to have tried out things so that they know what is in alignment with their strength and with their style. But I've also worked with people who are starting and want to start with a solid foundation. 

Jen Liddy

And that's a rare person in the business. 

Claudia Schalkx

That's a rare person, but they exist, and they know what they want, and they are open to receiving advice and thinking. But they say, I don't have the slightest idea of this, but I know I need help, and it's understandable because nobody thought of marketing at school. It would be absurd that you pretend to know marketing if nobody taught you that. 

Jen Liddy

Yes.

Claudia Schalkx

It's the people who have been in business that they've tried something, and they are kind of doing everything that the guru said, but they don't see the results for their effort.

Jen Liddy

Yeah. I love that; that's a really great way to say it

We're going to wrap up, but if you feel like you're a 24/7 commercial for your business, I invite you to think about taking your customer along the journey. It's not just always here's my thing and listening to them, but also to listen to yourself.

As Claudia said, what are your values? You know, what do you like in terms of receiving marketing, and how can you give this to your own audience? I'm going to put Claudia's website here because she has a great quiz that you can take.

If you are somebody who really wants to know what my client is, this is her magic. That's not my magic, and I will always send you to her for that. And if you are ready to work on your content at a deep level and really learn how to do that, you can go to my site, and I will post those links here in a moment.

Claudia Schalkx

Thank you. See you next time, bye.