Meet Patty Lennon - intuitive coach -and host of the Space for Magic Podcast!

In our conversation, Patty dives into

what to do REALISTICALLY about sales feeling hard

3 steps to sales calls that actually feel good - for you and your potential client

one shift to take you from over-efforting & into ease.

One of my favorite take-aways from Patty is, “You don’t have a sales problem. You have a receiving problem.”

Listen in. She explains it WAY better than me, but basically, we’re soooooo busy fixing and doing and taking care of…in our lives & businesses -

that it feels terribly selfish to just ACCEPT and RECEIVE.

I credit Patty’s Receiving Method to why sales calls finally feel smooth for me…

In alignment with my personality,

And in integrity with the impact, I want to create!

Watch The Full Interview! 

Full Transcript 

Jen:  Welcome to today's podcast interview. I am talking all month about how to do sales in a way that don't suck the life out of our business and life. And the reason I'm doing this is I see it in my clients. I see it all over the place when I'm talking to entrepreneurs, people keep sales, they feel cringy about it. And I see a of people avoiding doing anything that will lead to sales, including getting on sales calls, even putting out content.

People avoid putting out content because they know it's going to lead to sales. So I'm going to be talking only about strategies to help us figure this out. And my first guest this month is a person who is very special to me. This is my business coach, Patty Lennon, who is an intuitive coach and the host for the Space for Magic podcast. And I'm going to listen to everything she says because she taught me a fresh way to approach sales in a way that didn't feel gross. It felt in alignment with me and now I actually look forward to sales calls because I never have to fear them anymore. So I think she can help you too. 

Thank you, Patty, for making the time. I know this was such a special thing for you to do for me, I do appreciate it.

Patty:  I am so happy to be here. I love talking about this topic. I think if we can help good quality entrepreneurs who are trying to be in the world, get rid of this wound based interaction with sales conversations. Just their work is going to expand, which means the impact they have on the planet’s going to expand.  And the more money that's in the hand of good people is what's going to this planet we’re on. 

Jen:  Amen. Amen. 

So please, can you get started talking about why we feel this way about sales in the first place? What's our problem?

Patty:  So sales brings up a lot for people. And if you're listening, you might be like, “Yep, sales feel super uncomfortable.” And you may think you know why, but what I found is most people actually don't understand what's going on underneath the surface.

And one thing that I over and over again is if you are an entrepreneur who actually knows who your target customer is, right? So that's very specific because if you don't, if you're like, “I help everyone,” what I'm going to share with you in this podcast is not going to help you. But if you know who you serve and you have something that you offer that helps them, that solves a problem they have, and you have a problem with selling...

You don't have a selling. You have a receiving.

And so most people think the sales conversation is the problem. Like, “it's uncomfortable. I sweat,” whatever. But it's actually the thing at the end of the sales conversation, which is asking for money and receiving it for what you do that's triggering everything else. And it's because underneath the surface, you've been trained that good people give and selfish obnoxious people take or receive.

Jen:  That’s right. Right.

Patty:  And so a lot of this dysfunction comes from just having a disrupted understanding of what balance means, because everywhere in world, we have to balance giving with receiving or we're off balance, period. You know, a wave goes out, it comes back in. The Moon's full, then it's new, right? You know, the leaves on the trees fall to the ground, they become fertilizer. The tree has new leaves. And everywhere in nature, which I really think everything we need to know about running a business is actually present in nature. Like everything we need to figure out, The Divine, The Universe, whatever you want to say, has set it up with the basic guidebook. Right?

Breath, you breathe in, you breathe our, or you have to die. 

Jen:  Yes.

Patty:  But then we've taught ourselves this imbalance. As humanity we've taught ourselves and that's really what's going on.

I think a couple that with the fact that the entrepreneurial market, especially digital marketing, is overrun by this white male bro marketing dysfunctional, masculine energy, and for the most purpose driven entrepreneurs, whether they're men or women, are truly operating either from balance of masculine and feminine or more feminine.

So now you're taking an energetic person and layering on a system that isn't even a match for them. So of course it's going to gross.

Jen:  Right.

When that moment happens when it feels gross, because, you know, that we both agree we're on the call to talk about your problem and talk about how I might be the solution to your problem. And then at the end, people stumble. Their voice goes rally high when they have to say the price. Or some people even forget to make the offer on their sales call. 

Patty:  I was going to say because I say. Not some people. I would say a solid….Because, I used to do just this.I would do  like, workshops where I would help people with just this. This is 60% of them. At least 60% ended the conversation saying, “Okay, well, you know, if you have any questions, let me know. All right. Well, let me know what you think,” and then they end and they hope the person comes back and ask them later on if they can buy their product. 

Jen:  Yeah 

Patty:  And let me just say, “Me too! Me too!” I didn't come out of the womb being able to sell myself.

Jen:  Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you, because when I started working with you, which was probably 2016 or 2017. I was really scared to say what my pricing was, and we've done all this work about balancing and why you deserve it, even though you serve. Just  as a teacher, especially! You're just horrible if you're asking for money. Right? So I've learned so much about that.

But one of my favorite parts about your process to sales is understanding in the sales call that you kind of have to sit with the discomfort that both you're experiencing with your own garbage about sales, but also the discomfort you're experiencing with the person who has the pain on the other side.

Can you talk a bit about that?

Patty:  Yeah. So for people in a conversation as the person who's running the sales conversation, the entrepreneur, there are three parts to the conversation.

The first part is where you're exploring the client’s journey, and that includes exploring their pain. Right? Now, you don't want to amplify it to the point where you're creating pain that's not there. But you do want to be able to honor the pain and explore it, or else you can't figure out if there's a real solution. The second part is where you bridge that journey into really describing your offer. And then the final is where you're making the actual offer, where you're asking for money.

And one of the tricks or kind of the precepts of my methodology is that you need to change how you define a sales conversation. The way we've been taught as a sales conversation is when you get the sales. And you know, my rule is “A sales conversation is when you and the other person are completely clear about what that person's challenge is. You're clear on whether you can help them with that challenge. And you've described clearly to them how you can help.” That's all you have control over. Whether they say “Yes or no,” is out of your control.

So making your success dependent on chocie a someone else makes is part of the problem. So first, just understand here’s your responsibility. And that's important is that you have a responsibility. So,  at that very first part of the sales conversation, where you're saying, “Tell me what you desire and now tell me where you are now.” There's a gap right? And if you are the type of person that thinks that it's your job to solve other people's pain, especially if you're an empath or sensitive and you feel other people's pain, you probably grew up getting really good at saying the right thing, moving the pieces around on the chessboard of your life to make things better for people, right?

That was your coping mechanism. And that's what made you feel safe. Now in sales, you're asking yourself to sit with someone else's pain and not solve it in the moment. And if you're used to solving it, what usually happens is then you spend the entire sales conversation actually coaching them. Or if you're a marketer showing them how to fix it, how to whatever. You send it, fixing their pain and your hope is if you show them how good you are at that, that they're going to buy from you.

But really, what happened is you actually drain the pain out of the moment, and the pain is the only thing that's going to get them to have the courage to invest in themselves. And that's what's going on. They just need to believe that it's so bad that even though they don't 100% believe they're worth investing in themselves, it's just gotten too much, right? 

Jen:  And now they need some help.

Patty:  So you really want to look at it as an act of service and understand most people just want to be witnessed in their pain.

Jen:  It sounds like there’s two parts to receiving in this sale’s process. One is being able to receive the money that you deserve for the value that you're about to bring to solve the problem. But the other receiving happens when you don't give by solving their problem in the sales call, you just receive and witness thier pain and their emotions. Right? 

Patty:  There's the receiving of that, but really, what it comes down to the wound that's going on is “I'm not safe to receive until everyone else is okay.” So really, where you're blocking it is saying, “No, we can't go any further until I make it okay for you.” And where you want to come back to is “I can receive even though everyone else may not be okay.”

Jen:  Yes. Which is a hurdle for many women. And I'm part of your community, so I know how many women you and men you affect with this philosophy about our need to receive. I've seen what learning to receive can do for people. I personally experienced it myself. So I understand this interrelationship, but I'd really love for you to talk more about the receiving piece, because when you and I were working together, you were just like a full-on business coach. You're an intuitive business coach, but now you've really shifted your business model.

So can you talk a bit about that and tell us more about why receiving is so important?

Patty:  Yeah. So what had happened in my career as an entrepreneur was I came from a successful  corporate career. So I was a VP in banking. I know you know this, I’m just sharing it for those who are listening. And then I went into entrepreneurship, and I thought “Well, if I can run these huge divisions of course I can run a successful business.” And I like started it and I fail miserably. And so I had to claw my way to success.

And what I mean by that is, I had to get through every wound and challenge. As I succeeded and I started to coach more and more people in business, it kept coming back to this thing. They would come to me because they wanted to make more money, and then we would get underneath what was happening. And I could teach them like I'm proficient in marketing plans. I'm proficient and technical, so I can teach that.

And I kept teaching it and teaching it.

But I suddenly realized, “Oh, my God, this is not the problem.”

If this was the problem, the number of sales and marketing programs that are out there would have solved it. Just like with you and sharing with people how they share their message. If the technical aspect of writing, was really the issue. It would have been solved a times over.\ The thing that makes you different is you can hold the space for them in their discomfort that whatever they write might not be enough. And that's really what it comes down to is a worthiness issue. 

And so I just felt like I was bringing people into my business saying I'll help you make your business successful, when I really knew that it wasn't just their business, that this receiving issue was present in their entire life. And that this was really the thing. This was the problem I actually was really good at solving. And I needed to just be honest about that and just really get down to the heart of it. So it was always I was saying to people, “You don't have a sales problem, you have a receiving problem.” And the homework I was giving them… 

Can I give an example of your homework, please?

Jen:  Please do. 

Patty:  Jen would need to take a vacation. Jen needs to have fun, needs to dance, right? And it's like that's what you need to do to sell better? But it is because you have to invite back in these parts that you lose along the way. And so when I'm telling Jen to take a week off or two weeks off, can you see how that's a match for Jen in the sales conversation? She always feels like she has to be the one solving the problem.

So Jen can't take time off because there are always, always other problems to solve.

And when you take time off, then all your fears around not being enough for someone else start to come up, you can stare at them in the face and then they eventually process out. And that's really how it works.

As long as you don’t deny your weird stuff, it will actually process out. And that's when I started The Receiving School and I left business coaching, that was my mission was just to give people an experiential process to let them see what was going on. And the thing is, when someone understands this at the sales conversation level, so if you're watching and you're trying to think, like, “What is it that's going to my sales conversation?” I can give you some homework.

And the thing is, it's not going to have anything to do with sales, but what's going to happen is it's multiple areas of your life are going to change. It's not just that more sales are going to in, it's your relationship with your partner is going to or your ability to be patient with your child is going to be there or a friend that you've kept around because you feel bad letting her go, even though she's toxic as heck will suddenly be obviously not meant for you anymore.

My God, I sound like I’m on a pulpit. I’m sorry Jen. 

Jen:  I'm tearing up because I know my podcast listeners can't hear this. But the work I did with you on this stuff was so life-changing.

And I used to say, like, you were my business coach. And I used to talk to my husband about it all the time. Like, I love working with Patty so much because it's not just about improving my business, but like, my whole life improved when I learned how to receive and as a giver, as a former teacher, as a wife, as a mother, as somebody who's just got this giving heart, your default is always “No, no.”

And you said this already, Patty. “I can't rest until everything is taken care of.” Which, of then leads to the people-pleasing and the perfectionism and the overdoing which there's no end to it. So your antithetical way to approach it was really hard at the beginning for me to swallow. And I have several concrete examples, but that just happened.

I was on vacation at the beginning of March and there there was some work I taking care of. And I was like “You know what? Screw it. I'm going to down to the Beach and just do nothing for 20 minutes.” And then the 20 minutes I was at the Beach. I my first sale of an evergreen workshop that I have on a thank you page which  has never had any sales before. So I pull up my phone and it was like ka-ching, Jen: 37. It proves itself to me over and over and over again.

And when you are an over doer, it's antithetical because you can't imagine that doing less gives you more. But in every area of my life, that has been true with my husband, with my kid, with my friends, with everything, and especially with my business. So this is exactly what I to have you on, because sometimes we just need to hear it from somebody, you know, in a that we've never heard it before.

And I think your message is a way that most people have not heard this before.

Patty:  And I want to agree with you. I do agree with you. I say that humbly because I do believe that a lot of this data, although I've synthesized it. I took what I knew about the banking world, and then I got a Master’s in Psych. So I bring in brain science that's really what kind of the difference here. And then the metaphysical piece because I big on the woo, but most people that follow me are more like Woo-Curious. It seems interesting. I haven't done a lot with it. But I do think that this is a unique approach because what I find is most ways that you can learn this stuff go far to one side or the other. It's either like hardcore business. You know, just do this and this and this. And then if you can't get the result is because you're not strong enough, you don't have enough grit. You don't have enough hustle. You don't have what it takes. Or you're watching the person with the caftan tell you to do a vision board of the sales or the vacation, and then it will all work out, right?

But the brain is what's in the middle, and you have to get the brain to feel safe inside the sales conversation. And so if you could just start understanding you're not bad at sales, you feel unsafe inside of a conversation. And so then the goal becomes making you feel safe. And just like, if a child would be scared of the dark, you're not going to be, “Suck it!” and turn off the lights. You're probably going to monster spray, or go get them a night light or something, right?

And so that's what I try to do. I don’t keep dropping you into the cold, deep end of the ocean. It’s that “Okay, Let's practice this skill, but outside of sales.” And so if you are the type of person that needs to fix it for everyone is make a list of three people immediately close to you. A husband, a partner, a child, a parent where you're feeling like you're responsible for fixing something for them. And then for a week honor, you're not going to fix it and then breathe through everything that comes up and what will come up underneath. That is the story! The story that you're not good enough that they're going to abandon you because that's really what you're afraid of is your brain actually believes that your partner, your child, your parent, is actually going to abandon you when you do not fix all their problems because this is how you program when they stay and they don't abandon you.

That's what starts to reprogram the brain into safety. When you take the vacation and the world does not fall apart that's when you reprogram the brain. And that's why it's so important to do things experientially as opposed to I thought work or practicing your sales conversation with your coach. You have to actually get out there and play with the Play-doh. 

I lost the metaphor. 

Jen:  No, you got it.  So the thing is, this conversation is super chock full of helpful nuggets and gave us some homework to do. I've given examples and you've given examples and all of that is wonderful. But the thing is, I know in your program, you break it down into bite- size nuggets, and I know that you're offering this program. And I also know that you're doing me huge favor by letting me share this with my audience after the cart has already opened.

So I know that we can offer this Receiving School to my listeners. But can you tell us about how Receiving School works and how it's changed people's lives?

Patty:  Yes. And I want to be clear, The Receiving School is not a business program. So this is a program that teaches you how to receive. And then once you understand that, once you build up your receiving muscle, it just naturally flows into your sales conversation. And we've seen this time and time again, I say half of our program people either have businesses or start businesses when they're in The Receiving School for one reason or another. And they see a huge influx of clients and sales. And like you saw, they don't have as many sales conversations. Like sales happen without so much effort. Right?

So that's definitely a symptom of learning how to receive but we're really trying to the heart of receiving and how we do it is it's an eight-week program with six modules. We have a lot of break weeks in there to give people time to catch up. And those six modules cover the five rules of receiving. 

So the first rule is to receive everything in the external world. That means if someone gives you a compliment, if someone gives you a gift,  but also if someone is kind of crappy and you'll feel great about them. It doesn't mean you keep them in life. It means you honor, that this is really happening. Right?

And it seems simple enough, but that's the one... It's the very first module. I find it’s... I don't know. Would you say so to Jen?

Jen:  Yes, it's really freaking hard. It's really hard.

Patty:  But I’m there and it’s only a week long!

Jen:  You make it very palatable. They can figure it out. 

Patty:  What happens is the exercises are very subtle, like you think they're going to be no big deal, and then all of sudden you start..

Jen:  So true! 

Patty:  So I'll just give you an example. Just so it's not so mysterious. One of the things you do in the first week is a complaining detox. Now, it doesn't mean you can't acknowledge negative things, but you have to tell the truth about them.

So where someone writes something nasty on social media and you might be like, “They're a jerk.” What we ask you to do in Receiving School is say “The fact that someone would be that harsh to someone else. Like, it hurts me. It hurts me that one human would treat another human like that.”

So it's not that you can't acknowledge the difficult stuff out there.It's just we ask you not to complain and actually tell the truth, right? 

That's like the first week, the second week is receive yourself. And this is where you start to get underneath where, “Do you feel selfish in a conversation?” Well, then you're going to figure out how being selfish is an ongoing concern for you.

Most likely, you will not feel selfish right now because you work really hard to not be selfish. This is going to show you how to see that “selfish” is just the shadow of someone that's able to set good boundaries and take care of them. And all you've been looking at is the shadow aspect of a personality trait that you actually need really, really well.  You need it a lot. 

Jen:  Definitely need it.

Patty:  The third module’s make space. That's the third rule. And that's really about creating a space that keeps you in a vibration.  The fourth rule is learn your language, and this is where you  learn how to trust the voice inside of you, and if you're interested in it, communicate to the other side of the veil. So if you're the type of person that would love an ancestor or loved one to tell you, it's okay to get rid of the antique ugly vase. This would be the module where you actually learn how to talk to the other side of the veil.

If you have a loved one in the past and you want to be able to hear them, this is where you learn how you and they specifically talk to each other. And then the final rule is do your 100%. And this is where you learn..

So modules four and five actually are about learning your language, and module six is where you learn how to know what's yours to handle and what's yours to surrender to the universe or the divine. 

And there are just so many miracles that come out of this program.  It really is humbling. 

Jen:  I'm watching in the Facebook group how many miracles are coming out of program, and the program hasn't even started yet.  Just from engaging with you and doing your free training and just being in the Facebook group together, where people are already starting to kind of mind boggling what people are seeing when they allow themselves to learn how to receive.

Patty:  It is. And again, I'm so grateful to be the steward of this content, but I know there's a force working through me. I do. I trust it so much. And it is.

The other thing is, I'm on coaching calls with you every week if you join. So it's not just you doing the stuff. I'm there with you. I'm in it. I'm not the type of coach that runs a program and drops in for her one hour a week. I'm like, I'm there boots on the ground. And there was a coaching call and someone said, “What do when you're estranged from your child?”

And I had said, “This is where you really have to hand it off to the universe because you can't make another human want to be in a relationship with you.”

It was something she had revisited multiple times. So I'm not saying it happens just from this one thing. But by the end of that coaching call, her estranged son had texted her and asked her to get together.

Jen:  Oh, my God, that is unbelievable.

Patty:  And I know that may not feel as incredible if you're really not doing a lot of sales, but I tell you, bringing the money in the clients is the easiest thing that I can help you with. The easiest.

The first week we have a hashtag that starts the very first time of receiving going off. You remember this Jen? Called Patty: BagsOfMoney.

And I was like, “Oh, Yeah, the bags of the money are going to show up.” And then all of you sudden money just started showing up for everyone, right?

Because money is not the hard thing for the universe. Getting your heart to change that's...

Jen:  Yes.

So to bring this back to sales, which is what we're talking about. And this is a fascinating, interesting, different way to talk about approaching sales. So I love this. Thank you so much for all of this goodness. I always say, like, I would not be at the place where I am in my own business. I have done all the tactics. I've done all the strategies. I followed all the rules, but it was only once I learned to, and I am nowhere near saying, like, I'm an expert at it. But just start receiving that my business has exploded to the point where I had to create a level program because I can’t accommodate private clients anymore.

When you and I started working together. Remember, I could never have even imagined being there, like having this whole roster of clients. And so I'm just here to say this is another way in your sales conversation to  make your sales life easier. To make your business easier. But I promise you, the ripple effect in your life is absolutely mind boggling.

So, how can we learn about The Receiving School and access it?

Patty:  Well, you're the only one who's going to have access. Your community has an extra week access to it, because we start on April 12, but we  close the cart from my community on April third. You have an extra week. So do you have your link?

Jen:  Yes. It’s https://www.jenliddy.com/magic 

Patty:  Okay, perfect. So that's where you would get access to The Receiving School. If you're listening to this on the day the podcast drops, because I believe it drops on the first, right?

Jen:  That's right.

Patty:  Yes. So if you're on the first, the second or the third, the regular cart is still open. So if you come into the Facebook group, which you get prompted to do. You'll see all the conversations. But if you're trying to join the following week, then just make sure you use Jen’s link. 

I do want to go back and not lose the thread of that this is about sales and that’s why people came.  So is it okay if I just give like a technique to  make sales easier right now?

Jen:  Of course. 

Patty:  So I said it really quickly, but I'm just going to through it. There are three parts of the sales conversation, so sometimes technically, people really don't know. So the first part is just explore the journey and start with where they want to go and then where they are now Then you just bridge them over and say, I understand this, repeat to them what you've heard, and then match it against your offer And then the final stage is to say, Do you have any questions?  Most likely they won't, or they'll say, How much is it? But if they say, no, I don't have any questions.  Then you can say, would you like me to share how much it costs or what the investment is?

Just technically, that's the technical, quote-unquote right way to do a sales conversation. But here's the shift you can make right now that's going to make this a lot better.

If you will just challenge yourself to show up fully for that person on the phone and make your job not making the sale. Just make your job making sure they feel 100% heard and understood. Make that your total focus.

I guarantee you the conversion you'll have in your sales conversation are going to go up. 

Jen:  I just want to explore a new one there because you also have to remember that going in service does not mean fixing the problem. It does not mean coaching. It does not mean solving. You have to just kind of sit with the discomfort that the person has told you where they want to go and what's keeping them from it. And you don't solve that in this call.

Patty:  Your job is to make them feel heard and understood, not resolved. And here's why that may feel manipulative to you. If you drain the pain out of that moment, they leave that conversation, a week from now, that problem’s back. And now they've got the pain and the frustration of thinking they solved it with you. So now they think there's something wrong with them.

Jen:  It reminds me of, like, if a plumber came to your house and you had a leak in your roof and you saw the leak and you saw the leak and you saw the leak and they just patch the wall when they didn't go find the source. Two weeks from today, when you have a thunderstorm you're going to be with the  same problem.

So, I never think it’s manipulative. I think that we need to think of sales people as solution people. Our job is to get to the source for them. If they could have solved it in an hour conversation, they already would have solved it. That's what I always say.

Patty:  Yes. If you can solve it in an hour, then you can start charging Jen: 10,000 an hour. So, yay you!

Jen:  I love talking to you so much. Thank you for sharing all about Receiving School. And I want  to remind everybody, go get the link to learn about Receiving School at https://www.jenliddy.com/magic , because I can't express to you now, this is rippled out into my life. And also like the people I've met in the group. It's just no bullshit. Like it just is really having an effect. And you was just so generous today, Patty, thank you so much. 

And thanks for always bringing it back to sale, because that's what I'm talking about. So I appreciate that, too 

Patty:  Thank you for having me.

Jen:  And also, Patty's got a fantastic podcast called The Space for Magic Podcast, which is absolutely just delightful. So I highly recommend you go find that we'll put all of this in the show notes and in the comments so that you can access it very easily. But again, thank you guys for joining me.

And thank you, Patty, for this is goodness today